Well, this is what it has come to. Unbelievably, impossibly, increduously, the Sonics have somehow managed to turn what should have been one of the greatest days in team history into one of the worst.
Look, I know some people will spin this situation as a positive, and it is entirely possible that I reflect on this 5 years from now, and say, hey, that Presti sure knew what he was doing, right?
But I fail to see how Wally Szczerbiak and Jeff Green is greater than Ray Allen. When you add in the trade of this year's 2nd second round pick for one next year from Boston ... it looks even worse.
A few numbers, if you will:
1. Szczerbiak, of the 4 positions he played on the Celtics last year, was worst at the shooting guard, his presumed position with the Sonics. He has not played substantial minutes at the 2-guard in more than 2 years. In his career, the man the Sonics expect to guard opposing 2-guards has managed to not get hurt in only 4 of 8 seasons. He ended last year with ankle surgery, after missing 24 other games during the season with ankle problems. If this is the answer at two guard, what the hell is the question?
2. Delonte West performed the unique combo last season of making the Celtics offense worse and his opponents' offense better while he was on the court. Again, not someone you're too thrilled about.
3. Jeff Green, according to John Hollinger at espn.com, not only didn't deserve to be the #5 pick, "he doesn't deserve to be a lottery pick." This is who the Sonics traded their best player for? A 6'9" SF who didn't block all that many shots last year? Hey, Hollinger's analysis is fraught with peril, and he overlooks his own mistakes (Curtis Borchardt is your good idea of a pick, sir, really?), but the fact that Green is a risky proposition makes you question the wisdom of this trade.
I'll end with how I started. This was supposed to be a great day for Seattle basketball, a day when the flowers started to blow thanks the fertilizer laid by the previous administration. Instead, I feel like we just traded our b.s. for somebody else's pile of crap.
97 comments:
Nuss, I have to admit I'm neither thrilled or bummed about the trade, but I think you're judging this the wrong way. I have to believe Presti accepted Wally Z in this trade because of the contract, and not because he think Wally has game.
BTW, I just read this in Frank Hughes' blog:
"When I asked Ray about Rashard, Ray said he doesnt know if Ra wants to come back now that Ray has been traded. He said he and Rashard spent a lot of time talking last year about winning, and he doubts Rashard wants to rebuild and have to be th big brother to a bunch of younger players. We'll see."
Dammit.... Presti better know what he's doing. I'm pissed off...
We'll seroiusly regret trading the 35th pick. There are still a ton of great players left on the board...
- Morris Almond (hopefully, we'll be the 31st)
- Marc Gasol
- Josh McRoberts
- Nick Fazekas
- Zabian Dowdell
- Marcus Williams
(...)
Wrong-- Jeff Green is a fantastic player and the perfect compliment to Kevin Durant. It's time to start over-Wally is a meaningless part to this trade that had to be included because of cap rules...Trust me, Green is a smart basketball player - a Pippen to Durant's Jordan.
Forgot to sign the last one... (Don't want you to think I'm a loser... lol)
Our only prescription?
More Dowdell!
The only positive with Wally is that we can use his contract to get someone. I get the feeling that he won't get much of any floor time. Matter in fact, I get the feel that he won't be in the opening night roster.
-Dan
Who the fuck is Carl Landry?? (Did I spell that right?)
Another SF, or so I've heard...
Well, that makes sense, if you think about Presti's plan of getting as many SF as he can get...
wally has a 2 year contract, Allen is going to be 33 soon. Wally wasn't the center of this trade, the 5th pick in a deep draft was at the center of this trade.
Think of it this way, Boston tanked hard for Ray Allen.
Wow, Landry is totally out of left field. Here's the nba.com description of him:
http://www.nba.com/draft2007/profiles/CarlLandry.html
Best of all, he's a small forward! Because we really need more small forwards, right? You know, since we only have Rashard, Durant, Green, Gelabale, Wilkins, and Sczerbiak to play there and all.
I think I'm going to be sick.
As for the Wally comments in the story, you're right, this trade wasn't made to get Wally, he's merely salary filler. I was only arguing against the inevitable comments from the Sonics that Wally will be a useful player at the two (I think I saw David Thorpe say the same things already). I just don't buy it.
You have to look at this trade as Ray Allen for Jeff Green. I don't think that's a good trade AT ALL. Ray Allen isn't some crippled old guy with no value. He's a valuable, clutch player who performs very well in the playoffs. No, he's not a defensiv estud, but he's better than 95% of the off guards in this league. Is he a good fit for Boston? No, but MJ wouldn't be a good fit on that titantic of a franchise. He's a perfect fit for a team that needs a veteran presence to reliably score 25 points a game. I have to believe that while they might not have found someone to make a deal at this very moment, they have to be able to have found something better than this by the trading deadline this coming season. Color me royally ticked at what happened today.
Szczerbiak (that's S-z-c-z-e-r-b-i-a-k) was only included in the deal to make the numbers work.
But here's the real point. Kevin Durant is a teenager. Ray Allen is 31. By time the former is ready to lead an NBA team to a title, the latter could be on ankle surgery #48.
Yes, this trade makes them worse next year (35 wins and no playoffs instead of 44 wins and no playoffs) and ships a popular guy out of town, but this is the right move to make for the long term.
Green, with his excellent passing skills, size and athletic ability, should be a great compliment to Durant.
My bad. I was so intent on not leaving out the c from his name that I wound up putting it before the Z.
Hey, I know Wally's not the centerpiece of this deal. I get it. What I don't buy is that we have to wait for 3 years for Durant to mature. Correct if I'm wrong, but how long did it take Melo to adjust to the NBA? Aren't they a perfect comparison? Yeah, this is Melo's 4th season, but he averaged 20 ppg right out of the gate, and there's no reason to think Durant would do any worse. And considering that he is rated way higher than Melo was coming out of school, there's no reason to think he can't average 22 or 24 his first season. I'd rather use every season I have of Durant going for the title, so that he associates playing with Seattle with playoff basketball.
Otherwise, he'll spend 3 years here, watching himself be double-teamed while Robert Swift throws up bricks and Presti hunts for an elusive 2 guard, then walk away in free agency.
Before passing judgment on Jeff Green I really encourage you to learn more about him. He is a tremendous person on and off the court and is a truly special player. His basketball IQ is off the chart and he does all the small things to make a team better, while possessing the ability to put a team on his shoulders. You should visit the HoyaTalk Board for more insight about Jeff.
Why the hell isn't anyone seeing this for what it is? It's a blatant tank job by Clay, and he knows that by trading Ray and pissing of Rashard into not signing, we will be HORRIBLE next year, and no one will care when he moves the team. I don't give a flying f@$k if they are good in 3 years, b/c I don't plan to be a OKC sonics fan. What a disgrace.
This team could have been competitive and entertaining with Ray/Rashard/Durant and a two decent picks at 31 & 35, but they just flushed it down the toilet to make sure they could move.
I'm embarrassed that this P Nussbaum represents Sonics fans.
"But I fail to see how Wally Szcerbiak and Jeff Green is greater than Ray Allen."
Uh, Ray Allen is 32. Jeff Green is 21. Its called building for the future. The goal of a franchise is not maintaining a .500 team for the foreseeable future. Its about building a team for a championship run. How you naysayers don't see this baffles me.
And don't rely on that Hollinger garbage "metric" to evaluate players. Jeff Green was supposed to go this high as he is that good. Now stop whining and see the future of the Sonics for what it is, bright.
Good bye "Jesus" :(
Hey George, there is no future after tonight. Unless you live in Oklahoma or Vegas. Maybe you do. If so, enjoy this team when it is competitive in 3 years.
You really need to pull your head out if you think building for the future is the right idea right now.
George, ALIAS Clay Bennett...
I hope I'll regret sayin' this, but I think the plan is really to piss everybody off in Seattle so that they can move the team peacefully to OKC...
Sorry about the nastiness, let's just agree to call him Wally Zero.
And that's a fair point about the 'Melo comparison. While I don't think Durant is as physically imposing as Anthony, he's probably a good bet to break the 20 mark as a rookie.
But 'Melo's 2004 Nuggets won... 43 games. I think with Ray, the Sonics would have won about that many (I think I said 44). I guess that would actually be good enough to make the playoffs, but for what? To get steamrolled by San Antonio or Phoenix?
There's no question that Seattle didn't get equal value for Ray today, but Green is polished yet improving and Allen's contract is now off the books. Presti is building for the future, and making two top-five picks in the most loaded draft in recent history (sorry, Stephen A.) is a good start.
As for the logjam at small forward, I'd think Rashard has to be gone at this point. Hopefully they can swing a sign-and-trade to get something in return, but this will be a much different team next year. Just sit back, relax and enjoy the Kevin Durant show.
I don't think this is Presti tanking it to get out of town. He didn't leave a cush job with SA to be someone's puppet. He's trying to scrap what was an unproductive losing team and rebuild around the New Lord they just drafted.
So in order to do that, he frees up salary by dumping Ray, very expensive with three years left on contract, to Boston for Wally, nowhere near as productive but at somewhat less money and fewer years. Ray's old and getting older. That's why Celtics fans (98% furious about this trade, by the way) compare it to their acquisition of Dominique Wilkins.
And along the way, they pick up Jeff Green. Hollinger doesn't like him, others do, Presti probably sees him as the Pippen here.
And if Rashard isn't happy because his friend isn't here, well, boo-hoo. You guys sucked, you lost a lot of games, we made some changes.
So in essence, we got a little salary room, a #5 pick, and we lose some scoring, which might be okay considering we just drafted Kevin Freakin' Durant.
I'm in.
Please don't kill me.
Can someone please explain to me how this team can justify building for the future next year of all years? Someone other than George a/k/a Clay.
And by the way, nice work throwing in the 35 pick in the "deepest draft" Presti! I can't believe we just hired a guy who got worked by Danny freaking Ainge.
I know we all want the Sonics to stay here, but I'd rather have them do that as a competitive team for years to come. Ray was a nice pick-up when we got him, but he's reaching the end of his effective peak and is still owed a TON of money over the next 3 or so years. While Durant may be real good next year, just adding him doesn't make this a championship team, not when he doesn't defend a lick (nor does Ray or Rashard). I'm not high on Green, but I'm going to trust Presti and Co. on this one.
Let's be honest, we all got tired of watching the offense run through Ray every single possession while he dribbled out the shot clock and then forced up a jumper. He's a great scorer, and if the team were better suited to make up for his weakness on defense I wouldn't mind keeping him. But Swift is a huge question mark in the middle, and the rest of the big guys don't block shots, so you can't have him, Durant, and Rashard all playing ole with their guys in hopes of the bigs rotating over and stopping them.
Green does a lot of things well, and with Durant (and possibly Lewis) he won't need to score right away. This team may not be a playoff team next year, but with a few more good moves they can be a championship contender for years to come, and that's way better.
Do you all really want to be fans of the OKC sonics when these moves actually might pay off??? I mean, come on people, you really don't see what is going on???
I personally would much rather watch ray and durrant win 44 games nex year and lose in the first round of the playoffs with the sonics staying in seattle still being an option. this trade will only pay off for OKC.........Goddammit!!!!!!
I am just amazed at those of you are watching Clay give you the finger and are saying..."gee, thanks, weeeee!". It's truly unbelievable. Maybe we don't deserve this team if we are willing to just sit here and say "gosh, I bet we will be pretty solid in 2010". We just gave up a hall of famer for next to nothing people. Absurd.
"Hey George, there is no future after tonight. Unless you live in Oklahoma or Vegas. Maybe you do. If so, enjoy this team when it is competitive in 3 years.
You really need to pull your head out if you think building for the future is the right idea right now."
Not the "right idea right now?" Did I miss a conference finals appearance in the last few years or something? We don't have a window. When you don't have a chance in hell, you rebuild sooner rather than later. Especially when you just added the new cornerstone. You want to rebuild when Durant is Lebron's age? Hello trade demand.
And how is the next two years with Ray any better than with Green? If you think shooting for an 8th seed is worth it, I think we have some fundamental disagreements of what we demand from our franchises. I want a win it all or nothing mentality, not a pleased to have mediocrity view.
The bagging on Presti also needs to be held for at least a few months. If you all prefer a "win now" philosophy, rather than rebuild, you should be HAPPY with a GM who takes proven college players, instead of the garbage we've taken over the last few years.
The rest of the sports world declares the Sonics winners of the draft and yet I come to the most popular Sonics blog and see all this negative crap.
We just landed the best player ever in the NBA draft. We added another player who would have gone top 3 in any of the last two years and who perfectly complements the Savior. I, for one, am cracking a brew and saluting a new Sonics era. Let the nattering nabobs of negativity be damned!
Chill out people. None of you predicted this, yet y'all now 100% certain of something else (ie tank to move)? I liked Ray, I thought Rashard should have been traded last season, but the Ray trade does make sense. 1.5 Allstars got us nowhere for several years now. The blow-up was long overdue, and it took new guys with no history to the team to do it. Now let's hope Luke ends up somewhere other than Seattle.
I have to say, I agree with John. I love Ray, but if Scooter wants a defensive team, well, Ray doesn't really fit the bill.
Sure, it would've been nice to have gotten more for Ray, but in the NEW NBA, it's hard to get much for 30 somethings with big contracts (see Carter, Vince)
Let's face it, the team was crap last year with Ray and Rashard. If we want to keep the Sonics in Seattle where they belong, we need to light a fire under the team. Let's give the keys to Durant and see where he takes us.
Hey, I will freely admit that I don't know nearly as much about Green as I do about the guys I expected the Sonics to pick. Since he wasn't on the Sonics' radar, I never really bothered to read up that much on him. So, whoever makes the point that I shouldn't judge Green by the cursory information I found on the internet: Fair comment. I'll reserve comment on Green until I've spent more time reading up on him.
That said, my argument is that I'm shocked that this is all the Sonics could get for Ray Allen. 3 years ago, I argued that re-signing Ray Allen was a bad idea, that within 3 years his contract would be unwieldy and the Sonics would be forced to trade him for 10 cents on the dollar. Today, that's what I think happened.
As for Green's personal attributes, that's a good sign, but just like I got colored by Ridnour, Jones, and Luke Jackson when they were at U of O, I think you have to admit that you might be a slight bit biased in your review of Green, since he went to your school. I'm not criticizing you, you'd be a bad alum or student if you DIDN'T love your guy(s), that's part of being a grad of a university. Agreed.
As for Allen: I have absolutely no problem with the Sonics trading him. None. It's the prudent thing to do, and Ray Allen is definitely not the guy to lead the Sonics to the 2nd or 3rd round of the playoffs. His lack of defensive intensity, and the way he requires the ball for 25 touches a night makes him a bad fit for this roster going forward. I'll wholeheartedly agree with that argument.
I also agree that the Sonics need to look towards the future, that hoping to make it anywhere with the team as constructed is bad idea.
My only complaint with the whole situation is that I cannot believe that this is the best the Sonics could get for Allen, or that they had to trade him today. Why couldn't the Sonics wait until mid-season, when another team looking to make a run in the playoffs mortgages a younger player and an expiring contract to push them over the hump? I do not believe that this was the best possible deal the Sonics could make, and I do not believe that they had to make a move today. By creating a false sense of urgency - a sense of urgency that was no doubt prodded by Clay Bennett's desire to reduce payroll and expenses - I believe the Sonics have made a poor move.
The thing that really chaps me is having to pay Szcerbiak for two seasons. Why couldn't we make the deal for Ratliff, someone who may have actually been halfway useful for one season, then be free of this contract crap altogether, enabling us to pursue a free agent in a position of need next year? I'd be curious to hear Presti's answer for that, I really would.
"nattering nabobs of negativity
That's going on a t-shirt.
And for the record, Nussbaum is only 1/3 of "The World's Greatest Sonics Blog- Supersonicsoul", and he hates everyone. I am feeling pretty good here. (our other third, Chunkstyle has yet to weigh in)
"And how is the next two years with Ray any better than with Green?"
That might be the most unbelievable statement I have ever read. I don't even know how to respond to that.
As I'm sure George would be the first to admit, he swiped that line from Spiro Agnew. I think that's Spiro's only contribution to the world of letters.
(But it's a damned good line, George. Well played.)
Now let's just pick up someone solid with the cap space we will aquire from Ra's departure (we're not going to have three SF's...)
Fingers crossed for vince carter or billups.... As long as we use the money to address the gaurd or C spots, I'm happy with our chances at the future.
And i'm sorry but all of you are retarded if you think that it would have been reasonable for bennett/presti to draft differently or make short-sighted, short-termed moves just to increase the Sonic's chances to stay in seattle. I doubt i'll stay a fan if they leave (hello blazers...), but you can't fault management for building a good team for the future.
Paul: you can't really believe that handing the keys to 19yo Durant and surrounding him with a flaming pile of poop will "light a fire" under this team right? Smells like a tire fire to me...
Although i am a little suprised that we picked Green with no. 5, and who the hell is Landry???
Also the trade for ray leaves a little to be desired. If we are going to throw in number 35, we should have at least gotten rondo instead of west, or ratliff instead of wally... Presti did get a little worked there, but still a good trade (wally will be a good bench player with all the open threes he'll be getting).
Landry is the man. But he was just traded off to Houston for a future second round pick and cash.
brian: the only people who are "retarded" are the ones who don't see that these moves were made to make the fan base apathetic in anticipation of a move.
Keeping Ray Allen is not short sighted. He just came off one of the best seasons of his career. We just traded a hall of famer for Durant's backup. Awesome.
A big thank you goes out to Clay B. Thanks for taking the franchise from Howard Ass Master, and then methodically destroying it from the inside, while pretending not to, so that Oklahoma City can have an NBA team. Thank you so very much. Please change the name once you leave Seattle. Don't force us to suffer the indignity of seeing the Oklahoma City Sonics on any merchandise or such. Once again, thanks a lot Clay B. and your awesome team of destructors. The original post is correct. They actually found a way to take a dump on the franchise today, even though it didn't seem possible.
More craziness from tonight:
Paul Westphal was hired by Dallas to be an assistant coach. Apparently, they were impressed by his work as an analyst during the Clippers' halftime show this season (at least somebody was watching, I guess).
Westphal was also awesome doing the Pac-10 tournament on Fox Sports! (I'm pretty sure he is legally brain dead at this point...)
As a Hoya fan, am praying for Jeff to get traded out of this all-3's & 4's mess of a squad--I'll admit that, when your team is dealing away a legit SG in Ray Allen and leaving you no recognizable backcourt talent other than Luke Ridnour, you have every right to be pissed that he's not right guy to grab. That said, to claim that the POY of the most battle-tested college conference when it comes to NBA productivity (see, e.g., the same Ray Allen you all are moaning about) doesn't deserve a 5 pick is downright asinine. In the unfortunate circumstance Jeff isn't dealt away to somewhere better for him, you all will soon learn....especially those of you so confused by the 3 hour difference from real time to think that your local POS Spencer Hawes was legit, when Jeff Green's distant runner-up for talent on this year's Hoya squad, Roy Hibbert (yes, the same guy who fought #1 Oden to what even the most delusional OSU fans would call a draw in the NCAA semis), would certainly made him his bitch. Be pissed at your team's management, but don't disrespect Jeff Green for a second.
Paul: you can't really believe that handing the keys to 19yo Durant and surrounding him with a flaming pile of poop will "light a fire" under this team right? Smells like a tire fire to me...
I guarantee they will win more this season then they did last. (I would bet something but I own nothing of value and am a coward)
Not that Durant is the next Jordan, but do you remember MJ's rookie year? His teammates were far worse than the Durant's. (Actually, Sam Vincent was rad, but other than that . . . )
The bottom line is, I hate Bubba and his Oklahoma Aroma as much as anyone, but I'm going to keep hoping for the best until they pry this team from my dead hairy hands.
I like the deal. Delonte is a solid point guard, and better than Luke or Earl, he will be our starting PG next year. Green is the perfect compliment to Durant, in that Green is a passer/creator while Durant is the ultimate finisher. As far as Wally goes, if he even plays, will just be a guy off the bench. Hopefully Presti can parlay Luke or Earl and one our many bigs (stiffs) for a 2 guard. I gotta know how you can run this blog and not have any idea how good Jeff Green is. He lead his team to the Final 4. Don't you watch college basketball? I got to assume that Rashard is gonna be involved in a sign-and-trade, hopefully for a shooter and a rebounder/post defender. I think the franchise is stronger today than it was yesterday. Peace.
As Matt pointed out above, the Sonics have traded Landry to Houston for a future #2 and cash. Haven't been able to find a link to the story, but I've heard it now on KJR numerous times.
A) Glad we DIDN'T pick up Conley.
B) I can handle the loss of Ray and pickup of Jeff Green.
C) How did we need to give up a 2nd pick this year?
D) Why the hell did we pick yet another average SF/PF combo guy when there were so many other enticing players available in the 2nd round.
E) Why couldn't we have gotten Koppenen for cash?
E1- you can trade a draft pick for cash?
F) Despite a brilliant start to the draft, Portland ended up overshadowing us. How totally disappointing. Well, at least it didn't happen 2 years in a row. What? Oh, nevermind.
G) How many SF/PF guys are we gonna trade before the season? What is the over/under here? 2?3?4? Something NEEDS to happen there.
H) Will Durant, Green and Lewis be on the floor at the same time? Who covers the 4? the 2?
I) I sure am disappointed in the way we faded out toward the end.
J) The buddy I watched the draft with is from Detroit-- why did they pick Stuckey AND Affalo? Is Chauncey gone?
K) Wally? Not Theo? Why the hell not?
L) I'm drunk and have a walking hangover. I'm out of here.
Here's what I don't get: Presti and Bennett both stated today after dealing away Allen that they were committed to re-signing Rashard Lewis. Obviously, it's possible they were only putting up a smokescreen to facilitate a trade, but why would you lie to your season ticketholders 10 seconds after you got done trading away the best piece of the team? Assuming that they aren't lying, why in the world would you want Green, Lewis, and Durant on the same team? If Green is as good as he seemed in college - and he seemed pretty damned good when I watched him - I don't think I'd want him to be sitting on the bench behind Rashard.
Just doesn't make sense...
Jason,
Answer to your questions:
Because Clay is an Ass-Smoker of a Fuck-Tard, and Presti helps Sonics go bye bye like magic ---- "Presto!"
Clay: "Hey fans, just wanted to let you know today, on the biggest draft day in franchise history, that we will not even be trying to compete next year. Thanks!" *applause from george*
I think we can all see now why Paul is in favor of the deal: He's got a secret man-crush on Wally World.
Yep, Chauncey is gone. Opted out.
So I still don't get what's so bad about blowing up a sucktacular team. The only reason the Sonics were in a position to get Durant was the constant bludgeon-like defeats (to Paul- it worked!).
And the last thing I want to see is the Sad Overpaid Veteran Who We Like A Lot So We Keep Him Around. Been there with Buhner, been there with Edgar, will get there with Raul. No thanks.
When a team is not winning or entertaining, you blow it up. Could they have got more for Ray? Evidently not. Bear in mind that GM's look at that salary statistic much more often than us working jerks and Ray's was gaudy and not in a good way. That's one of the reasons Manny is still in Boston. He and Ray can have tense dinner parties now. Thank God Ainge is stupid.
Trading Landry was a little weird, though. I was hoping he'd be the next Reggie Evans.
Everyone seems to be looking past the REAL reason Allen was traded. It's because the Sonics WONT BE IN SEATTLE IN 2009! Maybe this is a conspiracy theory, but think for a second:
- Getting rid of Allen drives down the fan base: Fans won't care about coming to the games for a loosing young team.
- Get a bunch of young new talent starts the beginning of a new team, one that will be in Oklahoma, so a few years from now they'll be a great team.
- Seattlites loose their star player, Ray Allen, and now no one cares about saving a team of no-names who throw away great stars.
Am I crazy here, or is this the owners shoe-in for help getting out of town?
Ethan
Seattle, WA
If you were Rashard, why in the Hizzell would you ever even consider signing with this team at this point? They just drafted two guys at your position, traded away the best player, and sold and gave away their two high second rounders. Plus this team is clearing house to move to OKC.
We will miss you too Rashard, but we can't blame you for not wanting to be a part of this crap.
Ryan,
Ha! Great. Clay, and Presto, and George all love to watch them lose and then move.
Clay to Presto a couple of weeks ago: "You are my boy now. Just blow this thing up. Get rid of the big contracts and the talent. Bring in rookies who have a set pay scale. We'll skate by at the league's minimum salary level for a year or two like the Bobcats. I'll take the heat, by the time we get going in OKC in three or four years, nobody will remember this. Go do it boy."
Presto: "yay. me blow up team. yay"
Yep Ethan, that's what many of us believe. Some however think that this team will somehow be better next year without Ray than with him. Choose your camp wisely.
If you are a true Sonics fan, then the presence of Ray Allen - or lack there of - is irrelivant to your efforts to keep this franchise in Seattle.
Tanking during the next season hardly seems like a good business move, and hardly seems good for the NBA as a whole.
I think for the most part this is Sam Presti blowing up the sonics while their trade value has peaked.
We signed the guy on, and he's apparently a wunderkind, so why not see what he's gonna build around Durant?
I applaud him; if nothing else, he's got balls.
Unfortunately Slasher, Clay is not a true Sonics fan.
And to the idiot who suggested that Ray was an overpaid fan favorite...Do you even watch the games? Do you know what Ray averaged last year? Lotsa luck getting 26/4.5/4 Jeff Green.
Matt, I'll agree with you 100%. NO matter what, Presti has done something Rick Sund failed to do, he has changed the direction of this franchise. If Green turns out to be a Pippen-esque player, as so many are saying tonight, we will all look back on tonight and say, Thank you, Sam, job well done.
As to the conspiracy theories, I don't buy that. Presti answers to Bennett, true, but I don't think he would want to jeopardize his future in the NBA by making poor moves that decimate the team.
Finally, my last comment o' the night. I think I can see the light on the Rashard Lewis comment - it seems likely to me now that the team just wants to put on the appearance that they want to re-sign Lewis to appease the season ticketholders and fans. In reality, they probably want to see him walk. For one night, though, they put on the brave face and pretend they want him back so that people in Seattle don't think the team is going into the crapper for a couple of years.
And before I forget:
We got Kevin Durant, baby!
I think there's so much Wally Walker PTSD floating around this town for anyone to think rationally anymore. Durant for Brickowski! Straight up! Wha?!
I highly recommend you go check out the Celtics fans reaction to this. Not only are there more of them, they're level of anger is something we can only dream of.
And anyway, the Muckleshoots are going to save the team, right? Bennett sells high, new local owners get to be heroes, and I don't have to deal with QA traffic. Everyone wins.
Not sure why you would post this picture unless you like to look at guys with their shirts off, is the rage you are expressing in your article simply an attempt to hide your true love for Wally.
Anyways I hate that Ray is gone, I love the Sonics i'm from Toronto, but I think Presti is a smart GM, he has earned his position and you will see this trade pay off.
read up what SLASHER wrote, he is a true sonic fan
Ray-Ray had the nastiest, most cold blooded, fearless shot and I will miss him -- but it is Durant's time now.
This trade will help the Sonics a ton. It's just a matter of when.
I'm from Milwaukee, so I know that trading Ray Allen is a tough thing to do. He's a terrific player and an even better person, and losing him obviously hurts.
But I also go to Georgetown, and I know that Jeff Green is a very special player. He and Durant will be better than the sum of their parts, and that's downright scary for opponents.
Off the court he's in the same boat as Allen - a humble and laid back class act. He doesn't like the spotlight and he's a real team player (when he won Big East Player of the Year the first thing he said was that his teammate should have gotten it instead).
Think ahead a little bit. In a few years Allen will be enjoying his retirement, while Green and Durant will be one of the premier dynamic duos in the NBA. The Celtics just handed the Sonics a huge gift.
- Max
I'm a Celtic fan and I think you just robbed us blind. We have no use for a 33 year old shooting guard making maximum salary. Great pick up of two of the top talents in a very deep draft. You now have a solid foundation for the future.
In the short-term I understand he's no replacement for Ray Allen, but I can promise you'll love Jeff Green. He will do whatever it takes to win. His point totals aren't gaudy because Georgetown plays at a very deliberate pace and wins by being more effecient with its possesions than the other team. But when we were forced to play uptempo to keep pace (Notre Dame in the Big East tourney, UNC in the Elite 8), you got a preview of what Jeff Green in the NBA might look like.
I think scouting reports like the one on ESPN.com are generally fair. His jump shot is inconsistent, although he finds ways to score inside on nights when he doesn't have it. I do feel that when they highlight (and rightly so) his passing ability and "basketball IQ," it may lead the reader to underestimate his athleticism. Don't. (Search YouTube for "Superman goes to Georgetown" to see a great example.)
I'm certainly biased, but for what it's worth I think Hibbert's going to be a horrible pro. Looking forward to seeing Jeff and Durant play together for the next decade... hopefully with a few championships along the way.
slasher's comment is nice, but true Seattle Sonics fans don't get to decide if the team stays in Seattle.
Clay is not a true fan of the Seattle Sonics. He is a dude who wants to own an NBA team, and he hopes it can be in his home town.
The Seattle Sonics died a little bit tonight....the Somewhere Else Sonics are doing great.......
Well...
Let's all just calm the f*** down and look at it this way:
First: we just drafted next year's ROY.
Second: we just drafted next year's ROY. The ROY in one of the most talented classes ever... That alone should be enough for us to feel, at least, happy. Not "Blazer happy", but, still, "happy, happy".
As for the trade:
For sure, Jeff Green was not what I expected with that 5th pick, but let's just give him a chance. I know he's good (we "all" do), but is he "5th pick in one of the deepest drafts ever" good...? Only time will tell. Meanwhile, give the kid some credit: he was great in college, and that's about the only thing we can judge. (On the other hand, the 31st pick... well, I think we have the right to be pissed off about that one. Terrible move...! A waste of a pick.)
Now, as for the "other part" of the trade:
Ray Allen has a beautiful, beautiful game. Surely, he's not a stopper, but he's clever, so his defense is not as bad as "you all" make of it. Still, I think this was just about all we could get for him. I don't think Ratliff would contribute more to this team than Szczerbiak: taking minutes from Swift, or Collison? C'mon... On the other hand, Wally will most likely be our backup SG, and while I don't think he's great (I really don't see much in him besides that lovely shot of his), I think he's an improvement over Wilkins. Overpaid, sure, but what the hell...! Then... there's West. The guy who couldn't convince his coach he was better for the PG spot than Telfair. Sebastian "the human turnover" Telfair. But still, I think it was mainly because Rivers is, in fact, an idiot. While I'm not a fan, I'm tempted to view him as an improvement over Watson. But he's not better than Luke. No way in hell...!
So, what does that leave us with? A core of guys who I think we shouldn't even consider moving:
- Swift
- Collison
- Durant (obviously)
- Green
- Szczerbiak ('cause even if we wanted to...)
- West
- Gelabale
As for the others, they should all be traded. See what you think we could get from them during the off season:
- Lewis (if we decide to sign him. Or better yet, if HE agrees to a sign and trade...)
- Wilcox (I like him, but we already have enough crappy defenders...)
- Watson
- Wilkins
- Petro
- Sene
- Ridnour (to me, he's our best PG, but he's not good enough to run a "great" team, as we all should expect the Sonics to be...)
For all I care, this wasn't such a bad day.
This for Nuss and everyone else...
The is great night in Sonic history. We landed a once in a life time player in Kevin Durant. Plus, we moved Ray Allen before he started to decline getting the most that we could have got for him. Further more, Wally is a great shooter and he's essential Ray Allen expect for the fact that he's hurt almost all the time. As for West, I'm not a fan, but he's actually a good on the ball defender (despite what Nuss cited from Hollinger in an earlier post). In fact this is one Hollinger's scouting report of West:
"West has the tools to be an outstanding defender, including the shot-blocking referenced above, but he's not quite there yet. Part of the reason he blocked so many shots was because he would get beat off the dribble and then try to size opponents up for a block from behind when they went in for the layup. While this is dramatic when it works, it's obviously not the percentage play. He'll need to improve his defensive fundamentals and get stronger."
In other word at least he plays some defense, something Allen doesn't do anymore. Further more, I'm up on Green. I think he'll be great complement to Durant. On top of that every one has to realize two things" Lewis is GONE!!! and there is only 1 time that can sign him without a S/T or him taking a mid-level exemption. Charlotte in no longer an option for Lewis after the J-Rich trade. Meaning that Orlando is the only team that can sign him (and then they have to give up on Darko, which it current sounds like they do not want to do yet). Therefore, the Sonics are going to get something in return for Lewis.
Also, They are right now at 47 millions in salaries, given that Durant and Green will cost about 10 million that puts them in decent salary cap situation. Finally, IN CULTURE is so important than whole sale changes needed to be made. The Sonics were 172 and 182 since acquiring Ray Allen. He's a selfish player that shoots almost as much as AI does. Ray, I will miss you as a person and community leader, but I'm glad to see the Sonics move on.
enough of the Jeff Green is awesome crap.
this isn't about how good Jeff Green will be someday. it's about how he won't be good in Seattle. get that through your thick skulls Hoya fans.
I read the first few comments, and I am starting to wonder if some of you are delusional. I'm not even going to touch on the Ray trade. But you keep talking about Presti continuing to get SF's when he already has Durant, Green, and RASHARD??????? If I remember correctly, Rashard opted out of his contract... am I right? Go ahead and scratch Rashard's name off that list. Don't forget how easy it is to blend the 2 and 3 positions. You really look at it as a point, 2 wings, and 2 posts, if you'd like to.
There were two ways the Sonics could have gone... 1) trade the pick and vet.... 2) trade the vets and go young
you know which way they went
I like how everyone spent a long time thinking of who we'd get in the 2nd round of possibly the deepest draft ever, and we end up trading both away! Needlessly. WHy did we trade the 1st pick in the 2nd round for a FUTURE 2nd round pick, that will probably be the 20th pick?
Why did we throw in the 35th pick?
Would getting Ramon Sessions/Gabe Pruitt and Josh McRoberts/ Glen Davis/ Derrick Byars be so bad??
I hate Clay Bennet. I can't decide if I'm going to buy a bunch of Sonics stuff to go with my Mariners and Seahawks stuff, or to wait until Clay sells the team (or we move and not follow the team and root for the Blazers)
For what it's worth, Chad Ford's analysis of the Ray Ray trade:
"[Jeff] Green has been one of the hottest names in the draft the past few weeks. Some scouts say he has a chance to be a Scottie Pippen-like player in the pros. He's a great passer and very versatile. He may be the perfect wingman for Kevin Durant."
It's always upsetting to lose your star player, but I think Sonic fans need to embrace the fact that our new GM seems to have a plan and a vision for this team, and it started today with this trade. Ray Allen wasn't gonna lead Seattle to a title within the next three seasons, and considering he's on the wrong side of 30, that situation wasn't gonna improve.
The way I see it, if we're not gonna contend for a title the next few seasons, we might as well start rebuilding toward that goal now, rather than sit through another pointless 30-40 win season in which Ray Allen gets a few minor accolades, i.e. all-star recognition.
The more I think about it, the more I like the trade, especially the reasons behind it.
I agree with Chad Ford's assesment, but in a few years Tim Duncan will be on the wrong side of 30 and he won't be traded soon. Same goes for Garnett now and Kobe in a few years.
"Blazer happy":
(just take a moment to reflect on their roster)
C
- Oden
- Aldridge
- Pryzbilla
- Magloire
PF
- Frye
- McRoberts
- Lafrentz
SF
- Nichols
- Outlaw
- Webster
- Miles
SG
- Roy
- Udoka
- Fernandez
PG
- Francis
- Jack
- Rodriguez
- Koponen
- Green
Of course, they have to get rid of some of the "stuff" here (maybe starting by sending Darius Miles to the D-League whould be such a bad idea...), but, overall, they were the winners in this year's draft.
Did someone on this blog just compare Wally to Ray??? Come on jackass, you can do better than that.
That's great you "build for the future" crowd. Way to ignore the elephant in the room. The bottom line is that this team would have been a playoff team with Ray, Rashard, Durant, and two high 2nd rounders. Now, they blow it up, trade Ray, draft two guys who play Rashard's position, and give away the high second rounders. Nice work Presti, and thanks for making the last team in Seattle a 20-62 piece of crap. I can see why you were so highly regarded...
Not too worried about the Blazers. Weak except for Roy and Oden.
Fuck them
Not sure wtf is going on right now. Half our squad play the 3. What the fuck. Yes I'm drunk and rather eloquent.
Please tell me we have plans to replace Ray. Who's our starting SG?
No, even with Ray, Rashard and Durant they wouldn't have made the playoffs. The West is loaded and the only team that looks to have regressed is the Lakers. The Blazers are LOADED now. Oden, Roy, and whatever combo they want is gonna get a couple of rings. The Sonics have to better than an 8 seed or a little better, they need to rebuild around Durant and hope that Green is the guy that most of us think he is. If Bennett is gonna move the team it will really suck, but to attribute ever action the team takes to Evil Bennett Theories is ridiculous. Presti wants a more defensive mentality on this team, and Ray is the exact opposite of that. And, again, Delonte is gonna be good, he can play both ends of the floor, hit the perimiter shot, and is tough. A line up of Delonte, ?, Green, Durant, and Swift or Wilcox would at least be interesting to waych. If Durant is as good as some make him out to be, that squad is as good as a squad with ray would be.
Ugh. The Celts just got us back for the McIlvaine trade. We just chose the "destroy and rebuild around future stars" path that Boston is finally extracting itself from after 5 or so unsuccessful years. Ugh.
The problem is not that they traded Allen for the right to select Green. The problem is not Green's talent. The problem is that they could have used that #5 pick to address two HUGE voids: SG (now that there is no Allen) or PF/C. If the Sonics take Corey Brewer, then Seatle fans could go to sleep like a baby. Imagine the combination of length, offense, defense, solid attitude, and complimentary positions. Brewer and Durrant would be amazing for years to come and compliment each other on both ends. Green plays the same position as Durrant and they are both better offensively than defensively. HUGE mistake to not take Brewer. If not Brewer, then Noah. If not Noah, then Brandon Wright. But not another SF!!!!!
A little scouting report from Boston for you guys:
Delonte West:
- does a lot of things decently, none great.
- plays like his right hand is chopped off. you will marvel at some of the creative ways he attempts every layup with his left hand.
- likes his women older and crazy.
- hustles and dives all over the floor.
- seems like the type of guy that might smoke a lot of youknowwhat, but in a friendly (he'd share) non-thugish way.
- very unique personality. he will make great sonic promos and commercials.
- will be a Sonic fan favorite and missed by Celtic fans.
Wally World:
- handsome guy!
- sweet jumper.
- on second thought, it's more of a set shot now.
- while he's healthy, will infuriate you when he tries to 'takeover' the game and back people down.
- you won't have to be mad for long though, his body is falling apart and he will be broken within the first couple of months.
- will be a favorite of the ladies in the crowd as he sits on the bench in his stylish suits.
Couple comments:
Ryan - I know you post a lot on this blog, but you gotta stop with this crap of Lewis, Ray and Durant as a playoff team. I wouldn't work, because Ray is a selfish, me first shooter who needs 15 to 25 shots a game, this directly effected Rashard in the season that he would wait to see what ray would do rather than demand the ball and be assertive. Add Durant, what we know of him is that he's an assertive player and you got a disaster on our hands.
Plus, Lewis is going to command about 12 to 15 million per season and with his personality would most likely be the 3rd option. If you look at Golden State (the 8th and the team I have season tickets to) they had the same problem with J-Rich. They're paying him like the #1 go to guy (10 million esscalating to 15 million a year over the next 4 seasons) when in fact after the Harrington/Jackson deal he was really #3 or #4 option on offense. So they move him to the Bobcats in a cash dump for Wright and now they can focus on their core.
Now, look at the Sonics. They've freed up the last season from Ray's contract. They get an adequate offensive replacement for him in Wally (I agree with Ryan, that Wally is no Ray, but he is one of the league best percentage shooters for a guard when healthy). They get West would is a good defender and can also play the 2 and be our 4th quarter PG to play defense for Ridnour.
As I said before. Lewis is gone and we're going to have to do a S/T unless he want to sign for 7 or 8 million as a mid-level exemption with someone. Seeing as he was set to make 10 million if he opted out it's almost a certainty that he'll be moved via S/T.
It's interesting to contrast a lot of the opinions on here with what seems to be the general consensus from the media and bloggers -- that Presti made a smart move to change a franchise that wasn't going anywhere (i'm talking about the Ray trade).
It's hard for us to let go of Ray -- he's an awesome talent and a great guy. Let's all wish him best of luck. This is an inept analogy, but the Mariners did much better after losing their "best" players - ARod, Griffy, Johnson. This certainly doesn't translate, but building around Durant makes sense. I'll be curious how Presti describes what positions they will play....
For everyone that thinks that Durant is some kind of savior - I wouldn't make that leap of faith. What if his skinny butt gets knocked around and he gets injured? He could easily go from a POTENTIALLY great player to a mediocre one after rehabbing a torn ACL. I F-N hope that this kid does come out to Rip and Destroy - but all the years logged as a Sonics fan have conditioned me to reserve judgment until I see the guy actually play some NBA games. There have been many highly touted draftee’s who end up sucking on the teat of mediocrity.
You can’t assume that the new kids are going to be the answer. Each year I watch on draft day as the talking heads talk about how great the player(s) is/are going to be. Guess what? Over time, very, very few players reach consistent levels of excellence. Trading a known commodity for promise does occasionally work, but there is more luck than science involved.
These trades may eventually work out in the Sonics favor, but they definitely help Bennett's underlying agenda to both rebuild and relocate. That is a hard pill to swallow and an even harder sell to ticket buyers without the face of the franchise.
As a Ray fan, I will miss the extreme professionalism and class he brings (er brought) to the club. As much as I like a vicious dunk, I am just as amazed seeing Ray come off a screen and rip a 3 to win a game. Unlike most NBA players, I was glad to pay to see Ray perform. Should he have been traded? Yes, but mid-season to a contender would have yielded more value than Green and a handful of beans.
I've been such a loyal Sonics fan over the years; I just hate to see what is happening here. It is the culmination of Wally Walker and Howard Schultz’s legacy that led us to this sorry fate. I wish I had a spare couple hundred million handy to bail us out of this situation.
I only hope next year will be a Calabro/Johnson or Calabro/Bones Barry team for telecasts.
By the way, tonight's Anonymous had me rolling with these quotes:
"Because Clay is an Ass-Smoker of a Fuck-Tard, and Presti helps Sonics go bye bye like magic ---- "Presto!"
and "Presto: "yay. me blow up team. yay".
Good stuff!
"We just gave up a hall of famer for next to nothing people."
Ryan - You're an idiot.
Durant is the Hall of Famer, not Allen, that's the story.
Durant is LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Dwane Wade.
Ray Allen is 32, consistently hurt, granted, a great shooter and person - but at his best could only lead this team to a second round loss to the Spurs.
As for rooting for the OKC Sonics, there's nothing you can do to change that except selling out the key and showing the NBA brass how much better the Seattle market is than Oklahoma.
Beyond that, all of your bitchin and moanin is ruining an otherwise banner day for this franchise.
The story is Kevin Durant.
Not Ray Allen.
Not Clay Bennett.
Not OKC.
don't be so quick to pile on ray allen ... he's defnitely going to the Hall of Fame, too.
The more I think about it, th emore I say that it might have been a best=case scenario for te Snics. At lesat they got something, right?
the sonics were boring and ray allen was getting old (age and excitement). fade-away 3-pointers at the buzzer would be much more exciting in the playoffs (better yet, conference or NBA finals). besides, i bet durant alone sells more tickets next season than ray allen would have. in any case, my recommendation is to sit back and watch the fireworks (besides the ones on 4th of july) over the next few weeks as Presti makes some other eye-popping moves to fill in the gaps. he may have a small dick, but he has some huge balls and he's trying to make a name for himself.
All you idiots who keep pointing out the "building for the future" argument..Hello McFly?!..We here in Seattle don't have the time to build anything..if the team suck next year (which is certain with 5 small forwards starting) and lose the interest of the casual hoop fan, there is no support, no new stadium and the team is gone...
Trading Ray is OK but we needed to get value for him to fill in the holes in our roster but we got trash in return.
Presti and Clay both screwed Seattle tonight. Theres no way this team is competitive this upcoming season and that means ultimately that we will be attending practice games for OKC Sonics this year as they prepare for their eventual opening day in OKC for 08-09 season.
Wake up people..
I'm drunk. And I realized that some ten minutes ago when I came up with this:
(remember... it's not cool to judge...)
The Sonics wasted that 31st pick. Why in the f*** would they do that?Didn't they have room for another young player in their roster...? Of course they f*****' did! Not for both second round picks (and that's why Presti didn't mind givin' up the 35th), but they sure could use another guard. Or better yet: they NEED one. But still, they drafted some 6'7 PF who almost anyone with half a brain predicted to go undrafted... We drafted Carl Landry. Carl f*****' Landry! With the 31st pick in one of the deepest drafts ever, when we seemed to be in desperate need for a guard! Then, when things couldn't possibly seem more bizarre, we traded this guy for CASH to the Rockets! This got me to thinkin', man...
An here's what I think the next move will be:
Rashard Lewis cried when the Rockets didn't select him with one of their 3(!) 1st round picks back in 98. His family still lives there, right? He's still very popular in Houston, am I right? He would make a lot of sense in that team, right...? There's been rumours about a trade between SEA and HOU, but I'm thinkin' everyone is wrong about who's involved: I think it's Rashard.
BUT NOT FOR BATTIER.
After tonight's draft, why the hell would we want Battier for? Sure, I like him, whe's great, but if there's one thing we don't need is another SF. In fact, we just might have to get rid of one! And I really think it'll be 'Shard.
But, what does Carl Landry have to do with this? Well, the Rockets just traded Juwan Howard, and used their only draft pick to select Aaron Brooks. They need size, probably another PF. And they wanted Landry... but didn't have a second round pick to get Landry. And here is where it all starts makin' sense...
The Sonics wouldn't really mind that much to see Rashard go - the Rockets would more than welcome him. They probably offered us Battier, and some other crippled dude to make the trade work, but Presti (the name, people!!! Presti. Presti... PRESTI - this dude is probably Vito Corleone's godson!), decided to make them an offer they couldn't refuse:
"The Sonics will give you Rashard... and Wilcox, 'cause you're probably be needing a PF. Even if it is Wilcox, he'll be a good fit for your roster. Plus, we'll do you the favor of picking for you in the second round. Just tell us who do you want and you'll get it for... let's call it cash considerations. As this is a great favor we'll do you, we'll be expecting somethin' back..."
And that something, as you all have figured out by now IS TRACY MCGRADY! TRACY F*****' MCGRADY!!!
Did you really buy that "5 SF's starting lineup" s***? Did you really believe we'd have a roster without a true SG... without a veteran star to guide our young studs??? C'mon...! Didn't it seem suspicious to you lettin' Ray go like that? For THAT? Oh, Presti, you clever f***! You almost had me goin' for a while!
Check it out: with Houston throwin' in some other dude with a small contract, it'll work! They're probably just waitin' to sign Rashard to make it official. Plus, it wouldn't be cool for Ray to announce another trade, especially a blockbuster like this in the same day. The man deserves not having to share the headlines...
Oh, man, am I excited!!!
Tracy McGrady... Who would have thought???
We can keep Ridnour and that 3 headed monster for all I care now... Hell, I'll even bare Wilkins!
Durant, T-Mac, Green...
Man!
Presti, you're a f*****' genius!
THIS IS THE BEST DAY FOR THE SONICS IN TEN YEARS.
FORGET HOLLINGER'S BS FORMULA (I GUESS J GREEN SHOULD JUST GIVE THE BIG EAST PLAYER OF THE YEAR AWARD BACK).
2 MONTHS AGO, AFTER YET ANOTHER AVERAGE SONIC SEASON AND STARING THE 13TH PICK IN THE FACE AS WELL AS OUR BEST PLAYER JUST HAVING DOUBLE ANKLE SURGERY ALL I COULD SEE WAS AT LEAST ANOTHER FIVE YEARS OF MEDIOCRITY AT BEST.
NOW THROUGH NOTHING MORE THAN BLIND PING PONG BALL LUCK WE SCORE DURANT AND SHIP AGEING RAY OFF FOR AN EXPIRING CONTRACT AFTER 09' AND A GREAT COMPLEMENT TO KD..
GREAT WORK PRESTI!! ABLE TO REBUILD A CRAP TEAM ALOMST OVERNIGHT....
JUST THINK HOW DEPRESSING THINGS WOULD HAVE BEEN IF WE DIDN'T LUCK OUT IN THE LOTTERY AND INSTEADHAD THE PRIVILEDGE OF PICKING 13TH!!! STOP HATING AND ENJOY A POSSIBLY HAVING A GOOD B BALL TEAM IN SEATTLE AGAIN
Good bye Lenny Wilkens, Good bye David locke, Gm from Southwest. Rebuilding mode for team. Things were bleak for the M's when they started the '95 season, but this is a much graver, if not impossible situation.
Ray Ray is so much better than the comments on this page seem to suggest. Another key point is that he would have been the type of guy who would have shared the ball with Durant--I don't buy the Ray Ray is a ballhog BS.
Ray Ray is a class act who would have the perfect vet for Durant to model his early career after.
Nice T-Mac theory. Is that a joke, or were you drunk when you wrote that?
Please remember to remind Wally:
Perk is a Beast!
He'll know exactly what you mean
Also, we just broke a 100 comments, which might just well blow up the Supersonicsoul 3000 super computer. Well done!
I followed Wally in Minesota and he plays with alot of heart and is a good scorer. Besides didn't he always light you all up everytime he played you! Give the guy a chance.
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